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AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, Media The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, as we abide with Allotment 2 of our attending at the abominable Lifetime documentary alternation Surviving R. Kelly. The six-part documentary, which aloof aired over three nights and will abide to be accessible online and on video on demand, chronicles two decades of allegations of animal advance and delinquency adjoin the acclaimed R&B singer, ambassador R. Kelly, Robert Kelly. He’s been accused of abuse, bloodthirsty behavior, pedophilia, throughout his career. But admitting anathema affirmation and assorted witnesses, R. Kelly has been able to abstain bent conviction, admitting he has gone to trial. He was acquitted.
We’re speaking to Angelo Clary, the ancestor of Azriel Clary, who met R. Kelly at the age of 17 and confused in with him with hopes of advancing her music career. He hasn’t apparent her in about four years.
Also with us, Oronike Odeleye, who is architect of the #MuteRKelly movement, the MuteRKelly campaign.
Angelo Clary, in Allotment 1, you declared your babe going, not—unbeknownst to you, instead of to school, to accommodated with R. Kelly, afterwards a concert, and you went to the hotel, and you were able to bring—have your babe brought bottomward from his room, area she had aloof had animal activity with him. She was 17 years old. Allocution about what happened next. This was years ago.
ANGELO CLARY: Abutting would be this—you know, we didn’t know. You know, afterwards we begin out—it was 2016, you know, aback all the allegations hit, aggregate started advancing out. We already knew about R. Kelly. The aberration with my situation—and I booty albatross for my daughter’s action—is me acceptance her to be about a guy like him and cerebration that it wouldn’t appear to me.
Me, as a father, I acquainted I’ll booty albatross as declining my babe because I capital to see her, her career, go to the abutting level, which we—you know, we was blame that anyway. But to attending a man in the face and you apprehend these allegations and you apperceive yourself as a man, you affectionate of say, “OK, this can’t appear to me.” And I looked at this man, and, you know, we talked about my daughter’s career, him autograph a song, me advantageous him—no money from him at all—where everybody in the apple accumulate cerebration it’s all this money. I’d aloof like to apperceive where, as I anticipate I still—my babe still abrasion things that I bought her to the day. So, you know, it got from a man attractive at addition man about business to article absolutely altered in his eyes.
The sad allotment was I got tricked, and I bootless my babe by actuality tricked and dupe that I set her up and absolute a assertive set of abilities in her that I anticipation that she would be able to advance while she was in an ball world. And alike admitting we approved to set up ancestors associates to be beside her and this and that, I underestimated the claimed texts, the this, the things that we had no clue about. And I anticipate that’s what fabricated me be so adamantine on myself about this, that you can never belittle a man that’s a predator, that casualty on assertive things, because they go to a amount that you absolutely can’t appreciate if you’re not a actuality that has that blazon of lust. So, what I’m attractive at is a accomplished adolescent woman that got her parents appropriate there, so this man is not activity to try me, abnormally me. This is not activity to appear to me. And boy, was I wrong.
AMY GOODMAN: Angelo Clary, I appetite to—
And now I accept to sit here—
AMY GOODMAN: I appetite to about-face to a blow from Surviving R. Kelly, the documentary series, that appearance your babe Aiceis She explains what happened aback she visited Azriel in Chicago.
AICEIS CLARY: Azriel and I abiding for me to go to Chicago, and I was declared to breach for about a ages or two. But aback I got out there, it wasn’t what Azriel fabricated it to be. Nor him, R. Kelly.
Some disciplinarian best me up. We went to the studio. And we’re sitting in there. He’s authoritative music. He batten to me: “Hey, Aiceis.” You know, it was air-conditioned at first. But Azriel fabricated it to be like she could go places, she could do things. We couldn’t do nothing. She couldn’t airing out the allowance afterwards calling R. Kelly. It was all about what R. Kelly wanted.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Angelo Clary, that’s your babe Aiceis talking about visiting your babe Azriel. You affirmation that she is now allotment of a sex band about R. Kelly. You affirmation she’s actuality held. This is absolutely not article your babe Azriel says. Aback was the aftermost time you saw her and announced with her?
ANGELO CLARY: My babe Aiceis said it. Aback she alleged us and with the alarming adventure about how they was active and the things that was activity on, we anon appointed flights and was up there the abutting day. We heard a abhorrent situation. We larboard everything. We was there in apparently about the abutting 10 hours, me and my wife.
We got to the hotel. We abiding to accept a affair with him and our babe to be over there. We went area Azriel was at. Azriel had larboard at that time. Aback she came aback over there, we had Azriel and my babe Aiceis. We batten with him, R. Kelly. He explained—you know, he downplayed whatever was activity on. My babe Aiceis wasn’t adage the aforementioned affair that she was adage on the phone. She aloof capital to leave. She capital a altered room.
So, we fabricated aggregate appear that night, afore we got there. And it was affectionate of like, “What’s activity on?” And all I apperceive is my babe capital us to get out of Chicago, fast. And I was like, you know, “What’s activity on?” I kept allurement her. She never commented or gave me any bad accordance that article was wrong. She aloof capital to leave. And I talked to Azriel, and they downplayed it. And Aiceis went forth with it.
And then, it wasn’t ’til afterwards on, aback we got aback home, and I anticipate a while later, she assuredly came up and told us absolutely why she said it, that he had threatened us. He had threatened to do article to Azriel. He had threatened to do article to her parents. And, you know, I’m baffled. I’m sitting there, my daughter, attractive at her like, “What? So, why didn’t you acquaint me while we was face to face?” And she was like, “Dad, you don’t understand. These guys took me in trucks. They did this. They did that.” And I assumption aback bodies accept power, you can accomplish your atmosphere attending as alarming as you possibly can to somebody that’s not acclimated to that blazon of environment, area bodies are aloof anytime advancing at a bead of a dime, you know, by his call. So, I could see her captivation and not cogent me and acquisitive that her ancestors is safe.
But afterwards that, it was a bad situation. And, I mean, Azriel was axis 18, so, at that point, we couldn’t—we couldn’t aloof accomplish her appear home. She had aloof angry 18, so we couldn’t accomplish her appear home. Then, aback she assuredly came home, it was during her graduation. And then, you know, her and Aiceis had a talk. They talked about it. And they yelled about it and aggregate else.
And, I mean, it was aloof a sad bearings to apperceive somebody would abuse your adolescent with the activity of her parents or her sister, because she’s there. So if this is what he did to my oldest daughter, afresh alone brainstorm what he could be accomplishing or adage to my daughter.
So, aback you’ve got these girls advancing up and speaking on his behalf, and bodies saying, “Oh, they’re not held, they’re not this,” well, I ain’t apparent my babe in three years. And assumption what, I don’t see cipher walking about with pictures of her. We assassin an investigator. I couldn’t get any pictures of her. So, I’d like to know, if you’re not held, how did you abstract from your ancestors every one of these adolescent ladies that this man accord with—disconnect from their family. How can every one of them accept cipher in their ancestors that they love, that one actuality that they’ve got to see in their family?
And the apple appetite to accept that it’s annihilation amiss with him, it’s annihilation amiss with the situation. It’s aggregate is the girls, the families, this is the money. Where? Where?
AMY GOODMAN: I appetite to go to—
ANGELO CLARY: I anticipate the absolute catechism is—
AMY GOODMAN: I appetite to go to addition clip—
ANGELO CLARY: Go ahead.
AMY GOODMAN: —from the docuseries Surviving R. Kelly. This is Timothy Savage, who alleges, like you, Angelo, that his daughter, Joycelyn, is actuality captivated adjoin her will by R. Kelly.
TIMOTHY SAVAGE: And afresh we got a alarm from her, and she told us that she was with R. Kelly. We was like, “What are you doing? You’re in college. We had this discussion. I anticipation you was headed in a administration that you capital to go in.” And she told me that she didn’t apperceive what she capital to do at that point.
Weeks went by. No answers. It was like a asleep blackout accent aback I called. It’s been over about two years now, and we still haven’t apparent our daughter.
AMY GOODMAN: So, now I appetite to go to Joycelyn Savage herself, actuality interviewed by TMZ. Savage denies allegations that R. Kelly is captivation her and added women adjoin their will. And afresh she’s followed by Michelle Kramer, who spotted her daughter, Dominique Gardner, continuing with Joycelyn.
TMZ INTERVIEWER: You angle by your word, you know, R. Kelly’s not captivation any women earnest or doesn’t accept a sex cult?
JOYCELYN SAVAGE: No, none of that is true. None of that’s true. All that is apocryphal accusations. You know, bodies allocution all the time. You know, it’s aloof rumors. … Yeah, I’m out actuality in L.A., you know, aloof vacationing, and he’s in Chicago.
TMZ INTERVIEWER: Oh, cool, you’re accomplishing your own affair appropriate now.
JOYCELYN SAVAGE: Mm-hmm, yeah, accomplishing my own thing.
MICHELLE KRAMER: Aback I saw the TMZ video, I looked over, and it was my babe Dominique. She was actual unrecognizable, because how her beard was, and she was all tattooed up. So, I could see they was in Beverly Hills, and I aloof put two and two calm that that’s apparently area she’s staying. So, I batten with the producers, because I was already advancing to L.A. to do the documentary. And so, I assertive them to booty me to Beverly Hills to locate my daughter.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Michelle Kramer, mother of Dominique Gardner, who had been with R. Kelly for nine years. Kramer afterwards advance bottomward Dominique and convinces her to leave R. Kelly. I capital to go aback to Oronike Odeleye, a co-founder of the #MuteRKelly campaign. Can you allocution about these stories, Angelo’s case, with his babe Azriel, as able-bodied as the Savage ancestors and others that you’ve heard about?
ORONIKE ODELEYE: Well, they’re so heartbreaking. And, I mean, it was so—even though, you know, I’ve accepted these capacity for a while, it was absolutely affecting to see these families, who haven’t, to this day, apparent their babe in years.
And I anticipate Mr. Clary is right. Like, you know, if they’re not actuality captivated adjoin their will, afresh why aren’t they on Instagram and Facebook? Why aren’t there pictures of them arcade at the mall? Why has cipher apparent them? You know, why are they not talking to anyone in their families? Why can’t you alarm them? Why can’t you argument them? There’s no way that any adolescent actuality in this apple today, with admission to a cellphone, you know, who is not actuality controlled in some way, is not activity to be active their activity out in the public. And so, I anticipate that, you know, he is actual right. They are actuality held. They are actuality manipulated.
I anticipate aback we say “against someone’s will,” we’re cerebration that they’re actuality captivated in chains. But brainy chains are aloof as able as concrete chains. And aback you accept clean-cut addition from the time they’re 17—you know, now we’re talking abounding years later—they’ve been active this and audition from this man, audition him in their arch for the accomplished three, four, bristles years. You know, Dominique was with him for nine years. At such an important time in the development of their faculty of self, of who they are, of what is normal, of what a animal accord is, then, you know, he has molded them into what he wants them to be.
And, I mean, it’s a sad, a sad—a sad situation. But what makes me anticipate best of all is, you know, there’s the adage that it takes a apple to accession a child. Well, we were that village, and we bootless those children. We were the apple who saw who R. Kelly was 25 years ago, and we all stood about and did annihilation to stop him. And so, he has had chargeless rein in our association of our adolescent women.
And, you know, as abundant as the parents appetite to booty this on, of course, you know, and they feel like they’ve bootless their daughters, we bootless their daughters, too, because we kept affairs that music, and we kept activity to those concerts, and we were alfresco his balloon saying, “Oh, he’s innocent,” and we’re all lying, saying, “We’re demography a atramentous man down,” and all the added things that accept fabricated it accessible for him to accomplish this long. And so, we, as a village, should additionally feel that faculty of abashment and guilt, because we bootless all of those girls. You know, aloof as abundant as R. Kelly and his associates and the bodies that accept helped him are guilty, we are guilty, as well. We are accusable as a community. And if we do not footfall up appropriate now and adjudge that, you know, we ability accept absent it in the accomplished but we see it apparent and bright now and we’re all activity to booty a stand, afresh we will abide to abort our adolescent atramentous women, as he continues to do what he’s been accomplishing for decades.
AMY GOODMAN: In 2018, Time’s Up abutting the alarm to #MuteRKelly, your campaign. In response, a adumbrative for R. Kelly said in a statement, “R. Kelly’s music is a allotment of American and African-American ability that should never—and will never—be silenced. Aback America was born, atramentous men and women accept been lynched for accepting sex or for actuality accused of it. We will agilely abide this attempted accessible annihilation of a atramentous man who has fabricated amazing contributions to our culture.” Oronike Odeleye, can you respond?
ORONIKE ODELEYE: Well, that adduce was both amusing and infuriating. One, to alarm on the angel of lynching, which is such an hot-button affair in the African-American association and brings up such able emotions, was insulting, because so abounding atramentous men and atramentous women were lynched in aegis of their ancestors and in aegis of their community. These are bodies who were aggravating to protect, you know, their wives and daughters and nieces and cousins and ancestors members, who were lynched. Bodies were lynched for aggravating to assure their community, not bloodthirsty aloft it. So he’s not actuality lynched.
There’s a adduce that, you know, if it can be destroyed by the truth, it deserves to be destroyed by the truth. I can’t lynch anybody with their own truth. We can’t accompany bottomward somebody with their truth. Your accuracy will either lift you up or abort you. And now we’re aloof bringing his accuracy to light. If it destroys him, that’s on him.
So, it was, I thought, a acute move on a PR level, because aback you adjure those images, you know, African Americans accept a affectionate of a gut acknowledgment to it, and we go, “Yeah, we don’t appetite to see a atramentous man lynched.” But that’s not what this is. You know, every atramentous man in the account who has a altercation adjoin him is not Medgar Evers, is not Martin Luther King, is not somebody we charge to be out actuality boot for and supporting. R. Kelly is somebody that, in house, we should accept taken affliction of a continued time ago. You know, this is our centralized business. I mean, as a community, we should accept came calm and dealt with that man a continued time ago so that it didn’t go this far. So, I mean, I aloof anticipation that that was calumniating of his aggregation to try to adjure that angel aback we’re talking about what’s activity on with him.
AMY GOODMAN: And Angelo’s point about if these were white girls, if these were white teenagers, if these were white adolescent women, whether bodies would pay added attention, Oronike?
ORONIKE ODELEYE: I anticipate that’s true, in the faculty that the account media would accept best this up a continued time ago. Allotment of the botheration was, these girls were babble out into the void, and the media was blank it. And afterwards the media, how are we able to advance the advice about what’s activity on?
You know, I’ve gotten so abounding letters from bodies aback the documentary like “I had no idea.” They knew about Aaliyah, because that was big news. And they knew about the sex tape, you know, always ago, because that was big news. But in between, they’ve heard nothing.
And if this was, you know, dozens and dozens of adolescent white girls and their families in advanced of the news, this absolutely would accept made, you know, headline. I additionally anticipate it’s accurate that if his victims were boys, if they were atramentous boys, the African-American association would accept rose up decades ago to put an end to it. I anticipate it is abnormally adolescent atramentous women that we feel are disposable in our association and that we don’t accept to footfall up and protect. And that’s a shame, and that needs to change.
AMY GOODMAN: So, explain your campaign, the #MuteRKelly campaign. In the documentary series, we see—we apprehend radio base afterwards radio base has apprenticed not to comedy R. Kelly’s music. How all-encompassing is this?
ORONIKE ODELEYE: Well, the abundant affair about this campaign, I mean, in its affectionate of structure, there are two of us—you know, it’s myself and Kenyette Tisha Barnes—but as it’s a viral campaign, it belongs to the absolute community.
So, we put out calls, every time he’s assuming about or any time addition sends us a tip, that, hey, if you’re in this burghal and you appetite to date a protest, we will advice you. We will accord you the talking points. We will accord you the affectionate of step-by-step instructions about how you would barrage a #MuteRKelly attack in your town.
And they’ve been actual successful. We’ve been able to get abounding of his concerts canceled. We’ve been able to get abounding radio stations to say they’re not activity to comedy him. We were acknowledged for a moment in accepting Spotify and some of the added alive stations to booty him off, afore they askance beneath burden and put him aback on. So, I mean, it’s actual extensive.
You know, we accept gotten a actor emails and argument letters so far about his abutting show, which is advancing up in Germany. And we’ve already gotten German allies there who said that they’re activity to advice assignment with us to get that canceled. So, it’s actual extensive.
We are austere about endlessly the banking abutment of R. Kelly, period. So, wherever he’s performing, wherever we hear, we are activity to do our best to get it canceled, to accompany a abrogating absorption to it. And it’s been working, and he’s been activity the burden from it.
AMY GOODMAN: And then, let me ask you about this alternation and the acceptation of it. I appetite to put this catechism to you, Oronike, and afresh to Angelo, extensive a added audience. The controlling ambassador of the series, dream hampton, told the Detroit Chargeless Press, it was “incredibly difficult to get bodies who had collaborated [artistically] with Kelly to appear forward.” She said, “We asked Lady Gaga. We asked Erykah Badu. We asked Celine Dion. We asked Jay-Z. We asked Dave Chappelle. (They’re) bodies who accept been analytical of him. That makes John Legend alike added of a hero for me,” hampton said. John Legend, who’s in the documentary. Also, Chance the Rapper collaborated with Kelly on “Somewhere in Paradise,” appeared in his “Backyard Party” video, said in an account featured in the final adventure of the documentary that alive with Kelly was a mistake.
ORONIKE ODELEYE: Well, I’m, you know, actual beholden to artists like John Legend and some of the added celebrities who accept appear out in accusation about of R. Kelly. That’s actual important. Allotment of our accomplished aim was to affectionate of breach bottomward this bank of blackout that surrounds him, because there’s no way for anybody to accost adolescent women as abundantly and for as continued as he has afterwards a arrangement of enablers about him who acquiesce him to do it. And those accommodate bodies in the music industry. So, to accept bodies appear out about and say that, you know, they accuse him and they accuse what he’s accomplishing is important.
But I additionally accept that there are abounding access in the music industry that we don’t necessarily see as consumers. You know, R. Kelly has started abounding bodies in their careers. R. Kelly has accounting songs for lots and lots of folks. He has produced people. And on the outside, he is a charming, nice, fun guy. And that may be the alone way they apperceive him, as a talented, absorbing guy in their aforementioned industry. And so they don’t feel comfortable, for a countless of reasons, adage annihilation publicly.
But we know, because we additionally accept access through this attack in the industry, that a lot of the longtime artists who accept formed with him now won’t acknowledgment his buzz calls. He had appearance set up that they accept canceled. They’re not alive with him. He’s a hot potato appropriate now in the industry and has bidding how aghast he is in some of what he anticipation were his longtime accompany now not ambidextrous with him. So, alike admitting they ability not be about saying, you know, what we’d like them to say, privately, they’re accomplishing what we appetite them to do. And that’s no best alive with him, no best announcement him and isolating him, so that we can affectionate of breach this bottomward and get him to justice.
AMY GOODMAN: I capital to end with addition blow from Surviving R. Kelly and afresh get anniversary of your comments. This is #MeToo architect Tarana Burke, followed by Mikki Kendall, co-founder of hoodfeminism.
TARANA BURKE: These families came advanced and were authoritative atrocious pleas to get their accouchement back, to get their daughters aback home and abroad from R. Kelly. We’ve been watching them aback they came advanced in 2017, approved assorted attempts to get media attention, but it doesn’t booty hold. And again, I anticipate that goes aback into this abstraction that atramentous girls don’t matter. They don’t amount enough. And it’s accurate over and over again.
MIKKI KENDALL: We still socially don’t apperceive adolescent atramentous women as innocent, as admirable of protection. Somehow, it’s their fault. Aback the absoluteness is that the botheration isn’t the girls; the botheration is the predators.
AMY GOODMAN: I capital to get final comments from anniversary of you. Angelo Clary, ancestor of Azriel Clary, you haven’t apparent your babe in years. What you appetite to allotment with this all-around audience?
ANGELO CLARY: What I appetite to allotment is, bodies that don’t accept all the facts and don’t apperceive how to counterbalance in, and they’re aloof extensive out to bodies with rage, acrimony and humiliation, you know, accept that these are animal beings. Accept I’m a father. You know, I accept six children. Azriel is my baby, my youngest child. I accept no acumen to sit on actuality to appeal with the apple my case, because I’m not added of a public-type person, or nor is my family. But to the world, I appeal that y’all at atomic alpha researching. Do your facts. If aggregate add up to the aforementioned thing, afresh use accepted faculty to apprehension it has to be a problem. And the botheration don’t appear from these adolescent girls. And for all the fathers out there and mothers, I’m aloof cogent you it happened to me, and it’s a lot of R. Kellys out here. It’s aloof not him. It don’t stop with him. It won’t accomplishment with him. And assure your children. You know, assure your accouchement by all costs. Be open. You know, allocution to them. Breach in contact. Because this is article that I could never, anytime brainstorm that me or my ancestors would ever, anytime go through.
AMY GOODMAN: Oronike, your final thoughts?
ORONIKE ODELEYE: I would say that, you know, if you watch the documentary, if you’ve done some analysis online and you are enraged, frustrated, as I was aback I aboriginal abstruse about these latest allegations, to do something. And that article doesn’t accept to be huge. It can be as baby as cogent the DJ at the club to about-face it off aback he plays R. Kelly. It’s absolution your bells artist apperceive there is to be no R. Kelly. It’s, you know, in the beautician shop, aback bodies accompany it up and they appetite to alpha victim blaming, it’s to footfall up and say something.
I anticipate that it is important, like Mr. Clary said, that we apprehend that it’s not aloof about R. Kelly. This is a aggressive botheration in the community. And we charge to change and about-face the way we allocution about it, if we appetite to accomplish change and assure our children. You know, there is no way to be with a adolescent 24 hours a day. We’ve got to get the predators from out of our community, so that we’re not so afraid about our accouchement falling into their traps.
You know, if you appetite to get complex in the#MuteRKelly movement, you can acquisition us online. We’re on Instagram. We’re on Facebook. We accept a website. And we accept listed abounding means that you can help. But do article about it. It’s not abundant to be outraged. We’ve got to about-face that abuse into action. If we absolutely appetite to actualize a safe amplitude for accouchement in the world, we’ve got to do article about it. And it has to be added than aloof actuality online and adage that it’s terrible. It has to construe into action.
So, I would aloof say to everybody, do article about this. Alarm your radio base and acquaint them to stop arena R. Kelly. Thumb him bottomward on Spotify and all the added alive stations. Write in to them. You know, do whatever it is you can do from wherever it is you are to advice these families get their daughters back, because this is article that no ancestor should accept to go through. And it’s article that none of these girls deserved. And we, as a community, charge to footfall up. We bootless them in the past, but we charge to footfall up now and do what we can to advice them.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I appetite to acknowledge you both actual abundant for actuality with us, Oronike Odeleye, co-founder of the #MuteRKelly campaign, Atlanta-based arts administrator, and acknowledge you to Angelo Clary in Las Vegas, the ancestor of Azriel Clary, who met R. Kelly at the age of 17 and confused in with him with hopes of advancing her music career. He hasn’t apparent her in about four years.
This is Democracy Now! To see Allotment 1 of our discussion, go to Media I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks for abutting us.